Bob Thiele's Memories of John Coltrane and Their Relationship

Bob Thiele Loved Getting His Photo On Impulse Gatefolds

For the May 1968 issue of Canada’s CODA Magazine, Frank Kofsky sat down with Bob Thiele of ABC/Impulse Records to talk about John Coltrane. This May ’68 issue became a Memorial for Coltrane featuring the Kofsky interview (eight pages), a Late Trane retrospective, a discography and an extensive Visual Essay from photographer Joe Alper. The editorial mentioned the desire to present a visual rather than a literary viewpoint of ‘the man and his music, for the camera caught much of the strength and passions of the man’.

Frank Kofsky was a writer and an academic, penning several books, many articles and record liner notes. An avowed Marxist, he became a champion of Avant-Garde black music in the 1960s. In late 1966 Kofsky held, what is likely, the most insightful interview with Trane.

Insights from the interview with Thiele have already been quoted elsewhere. What’s interesting is the new information it contains (for me), plus the correcting of commonly held mis-information. It also provides the best insight I’ve seen into the relationship between the two men (this includes Thiele's autobiography). I’ve mentioned in other blog posts about the importance of Thiele’s ‘management’ in Coltrane’s legacy and I believe this interview strongly confirms this. I’m not meaning management in the classic view of artist management, but how Thiele managed relationships within ABC Paramount, sometimes hostile, to give Coltrane as much time and freedom to record as possible. Being expert in ‘managing’ ultimately creative people inside a big business corporate culture. Understanding the pressures and stresses of creating art, whilst at the same time having to financially support the musicians in your group. And buffering external pressures from critics, oftentimes during Trane’s time at Impulse. I didn’t realise Thiele had written so many letters to music journals, defending his artist. Only a few were ever published.

Without reproducing the entire interview, at least for now, I thought I would summarise where I found it most interesting or revealing.

It’s common knowledge that Thiele first met Coltrane at the Village Vanguard recordings in 1961. What was originally meant to be one night’s recording became four. Thiele admits he hadn’t really listened to Trane’s music before and it was actually quite tough for him initially. However, into the 2nd and 3rd nights he was becoming very involved and listening intently. Thiele then listened back to all four night’s recordings and chose what he thought was the best selection for the record. He sent them to Trane who agreed, saying ‘release it’. There wasn’t a title for one piece, so Rudy Van Gelder came up with ‘Chasin the Trane’ since the music felt like that. A fairly common misconception is that RVG was having to chase Coltrane with a mike, not true. Later on, Thiele called this track a fifteen minute seismic event in music.

Live at the Village Vanguard had poor reviews, these had an effect, but didn’t affect too much what Trane and Thiele were doing at the time. However further reviews in, for example DownBeat, became very upsetting to Thiele as he knew how sincere Coltrane was, and ‘such an honest and genuine musician’. He felt the critics were ‘almost like demons in their attacks’. He further believed that if you were truly interested in music, then you were immediately affected by Coltrane’s music or never. Thiele said he was, and he felt the same response should have existed in the so-called critical fraternity. The fact they weren’t, meant that maybe they weren’t the true critics of American jazz music. As LeRoi Jones (Amiri Baraka) most famously made the case for in the 60s.

As I’ve mentioned in other blog entries, the albums Duke Ellington, Ballads and Johnny Hartman came about partly as a result of the critical beatings. Thiele worked for a record company, and was concerned about how well a record would sell, then along comes a critic who says Coltrane’s records are ‘windy, flat and need editing’. The above albums were a Thiele idea that he presented to Coltrane, who readily accepted them with enthusiasm. The initial selection of tunes for Ballads and Johnny Hartman were a joint effort. 

Thiele asked Duke Ellington if he would like to do an album with John Coltrane with just a rhythm section, and he said yes. Also fairly common knowledge, I believe, is that Trane would typically do a tune ‘12, 15 or 20 times before he was satisfied’. The first tune they did with Ellington was In a Sentimental Mood. After the 1st take Thiele ran to the guys knowing Ellington would say it was great, which it was. Trane would suggest another take. Duke won out, and from then on Coltrane’s recordings were mostly based on one or two takes only (Thiele said this, but in reality it was usually more).

After about a year of recording Trane, Thiele remembered talking to Elvin Jones one night after reading another ‘ridiculous’ review in DownBeat, which he couldn’t understand because they were pressing a point on how strange and different the music was. He said to Elvin he didn’t find it that way at all anymore. ‘That’s because you’re like a fifth member now’ replied Jones. He didn’t mean musically, just because he was now so involved.

Much later on, Ascension was recorded. Thiele explained the edition I versus edition II story, which I think has become the main information source. Often, Van Gelder ran a mono 7 1/2“ tape copy which Thiele would give to Trane to take home. They both listened and agreed to issue the 1st take. Several months passed with Trane listening at home, and when the record came out, he phoned Thiele to tell him ‘that’s not the master’. Thiele believed it was through listening at home that John preferred the other take. Impulse agreed to the request to issue the other take and simply inscribed II on the second master. Interestingly, DownBeat complained there were two editions without any explanation. Thiele said he felt like writing another letter to explain, but had so many letters un-published, he decided against it.

Thiele calls John Coltrane a ‘fantastic individual, but not enough people know it’. Then goes on to talk about the promotion of younger players. He was very much concerned about younger musicians and would ask Thiele regularly to give them some consideration. News to me was Trane’s desire, shortly before he died, to get a loft in NYC’s Village, and set up a place where people could come in and play or listen. Attending rehearsals for free or the price of a soft drink. I guess a similar intent to what Cecil Taylor had done before.

Also interesting is Thiele’s answer to the question on his influence at recording sessions. Certainly he said less than at a big band session like Duke Ellington or a Pop record. Of course Thiele had a significant career before Impulse, including in Pop, for example in the signing of Buddy Holly and the Crickets. He didn’t want to claim significant credit with regards to Coltrane, he felt his biggest contributions were in respect to good recording, and in encouragement during recordings.

Kofsky tried to get from Thiele what Coltrane’s favourite Impulse record was. He said all of them, but after he listened to one for a few weeks ‘I stop listening and I forget about it’. A telling answer from the eternally searching and innovating musician.

Kofsky also asked about the final decision on which takes of a tune went into an album. Or if there were more than enough for an album, how it was decided what would go in. The initial answer was that it varied. For example, if there was pressure to make a release date, Trane had enough confidence in Thiele to pick the takes alone and put the album together. If there was less time pressure, they would try to do it together. I think better known is that Thiele encouraged Trane to record as much as possible, and even though they had many things in the can, Trane would say ‘let’s hold up on what we’ve done, I’ve got something new’. At the time of the interview, Thiele was appreciative there were still things to be issued. Thiele mentions he was for sure appreciative of the fact that Coltrane had enough faith in him that many of the albums were based on his selections.

They also discussed whether there were any serious artistic disputes. Unsurprisingly there weren’t. Thiele felt he was really getting to know Coltrane towards the end and wished he had lived, not only to hear more music, but to get to know him even better. ‘Of course, he never had harsh words for anybody, he never put anyone down and he never fought with his musicians, and he never raised his voice.’ I’ll leave the final part of the blog entry to Bob Thiele.

‘He was probably the greatest musician in the history of popular music and I was lucky enough to be involved in his recordings, and many people ask me about John Coltrane and what he was like and what it was like to record him and, of course, you’re asking the same things and I don’t really want to build up some sort of mystique about my relationship with John Coltrane. I think I have expressed it honestly, as it really was and it isn’t really that romantic or that glamorous. It was a very, very friendly and warm relationship and, not to sound corny, I think that he opened a lot of things for me. I think that if I had never met Coltrane, I would be in serious trouble with respect to the real crappy economic aspects of my own career, and so I owe a lot to Coltrane and I think a lot of people ought to – you know – admit it. The young kids admit it and maybe some of the old time critics won’t admit it, but some critics should admit it. He was a terrific guy, he really was.’